Curse

Scrimbul · Feb 12, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

For the most part, I want to discuss builds that do not use spirits, as well as weapon spells in other builds. Since at the writing of this post I'm trying to get a group in TA that isn't 'invite invite invite gogogogogogo' in ID1. Go to RA if you want that...

Under the right circumstances many weapon spells can out do paragons in utility. I've been toying around a bit and came up with a list of 10 questions or so about rits in blended utility and healing roles outside of spirits. Rather than outlining my entire arguments, I got to thinking of asking the question then listing the skills I might think could do the task and then letting said skills be discussed or others added instead of stating paragraph sized absolutes. None of this is assuming this is an acceptable replacement for the monk, but rather that these options can be quite a bit better than self-heals and these tasks can be done in the space of 2-3 skill slots each, leaving the other half of the bar for anything else for either a rit primary or secondary. (ofc anything involving spawning power is going to require rit primary)

1. Can Rits disrupt a spike?

Weapon of Remedy
Weapon of Warding
Resilient Weapon
Wielder's Boon
Vital Boon
Weapon of Shadow
Warmonger's Weapon
Wailing Weapon
Blind was Mingson (ideally only if they see the spike coming or are next to the spike target)
Dulled Weapon

2. Can rits prot from pressure?

Weapon of Warding
Resilient Weapon
Vital Boon
Wielder's Boon
Wielder's Remedy (spawning power)
Weapon of Shadow
Vengeful Weapon (with Wielder's Remedy, pretty much Mend Ailment with damage)
Blind was Mingson
Protective was Kaolai
Mend Body and Soul (with or without a spirit)
Wailing Weapon
Warmonger's Weapon
Xinrae's Weapon
Soothing Memories (with or without an item)
Dulled Weapon

3. Can rits deal pressure damage?

Nightmare Weapon
Wielder's Strike
Warmonger's Weapon
Spirit Rift (aoe)
Lamentation

4. Can rits keep another char clean of conditions?

Weapon of Remedy
Wielder's Remedy (plus weapon of remedy or weapon of vengeance)
Resilient was Xiko (self only)

5. Can rits keep another char clean of hexes?

Resilient was Xiko (self only)
Resilient Weapon (only mitigates pressure)

6. Can rits self-heal?

Mend Body and Soul
Weapon of Warding
Resilient Weapon
Wielder's Boon
Weapon of Remedy (E)
Nightmare Weapon
Weapon of Vengeance
Soothing Memories
Vengeful was Khanhei (can disrupt a spike)

7. Can Rits manage energy?

Wielder's Zeal (E)
Offering of Spirit (E) (sub-par OoB)
Renewing Memories
...

8. Can rits solo/team spike?

Channelled Strike
Wielder's Strike
Grasping was Kuurong (E)
Cruel was Daoshen
Ancestor's Rage
Destructive was Glaive (E)
Clamor of Souls

9. Can rits spike assist?

All of 8
Guided Weapon
Brutal Weapon
Warmonger's Weapon
Nightmare Weapon

10. Can rits buff for pressure?

Weapon of Quickening (E)
Weapon of Fury (E)

All of these options except for Wielder's Remedy (even that lasts 10 seconds at no points, which is sufficient for 1 second quick recharge weapon spells) Wielder's Zeal and Renewing Memories can be used by a rit with the proper armor configuration to aid in skirmish range the instant a fight starts (as opposed to a spirit rit who needs time to set up his spirits) and all of the options listed above can be blended to good effect.

Notes unique to this class:

Weapon of Remedy is the only pre-prot that can fully stop Searing Flames burning in it's tracks. It removes burning either on SF/Immolate, or on GG.

Weapon of Remedy triggers on necro's life steal and vampiric weapon damage.

Weapon of Remedy triggers on delayed damage hexes such as Lightning Surge and Wastrel's Worry.

Weapon spells are unstrippable. This means that Weapon of Warding is the only way to deal with a Grenth's Dervish at the moment that is being kept clean.

Weapon of Remedy can stop the poorer assassin spikes/hammer KD's in an emergency, as it usually removes DW or degen. It is also your only option if you are low on energy and need a RoF equivalent, Vengeful Weapon does not steal enough health.

Nightmare Weapon qualifies as necro lifesteal even if you do 0 damage. This makes even wands able to do roughly a 120 damage mini spike, or put terriffic pressure on a monk similar to that of a touch ranger, without as much energy loss.

Only one Weapon Spell can be on a person at a time. If you have put Weapon of Warding on someone, be damn sure they NEED to have Remedy on them.

Blame the Monks · Feb 12, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Offense + defense! Just like paladins!

Paladins have excellent healing and defense -- mending gives 18 hpe while HH makes an excellent preprot or emergency heal. You don't even need a hard res because the paladin has that covered too! On offense, Sever + Gash provide solid condition pressure while final is the king of spikes. You even have sprint for pussy runners. Paladins are even customizable -- just add a stance and vig spirit if your monk sucks or you need to solo the entire team.

You can argue anything on a forum. It means nothing. The community thinks rits suck based on months of experience. If you disagree, prove them wrong by outstanding performance in game. You won't convince anyone by long theorycrafting post.

Scrimbul · Feb 12, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

There's a post on IWAY. In the HA forums

IWAY is for the most part dead.

...so exactly why can't I point any of this out? It's not like I'm proving this with RA streaks or anything.

W/Mo is also apples and oranges.

Theorycrafting is exactly what the forum is here for. I.e. discussion.

Furthermore, channelling is outdoing certain popular Ele builds in DPS and being used in high level GvG even right now. Explain this?

Vermilion · Feb 13, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrimbul

Explain this?

Channeling has imbalanced skills.

That being said, rits can make good midliners.

Wee I contributed.

TheOneMephisto · Feb 13, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I think that certain rit builds have a lot of utility, similiar to paragons in function in some ways. I think that a rit is most effective (besides channeling spammers) in buffing other teammates with weapon spells and such, and then contributing to spikes wit their heavy hitters. A rit build with a lot of weapons like warmongers, vital, splinter, and fury/quickening can do a lot to increase pressure and still have some defensive help. Add int he fact that they can take bloodsong easily for some more pressure, and that they can use one of the stronger spike assists (gaze from beyond) with it, and they make a decent class IMO.

One problem is that people want to use them defensively, which I think is not how they should be used. I think that they really shine when buffing up your warriors/melee and throwing a bit of defense around on the side, similar to how paragons are being used currently, being mostly offensive with spear attacks and melee buffs, and having a couple armor buffs to help out the backline with.

Scrimbul · Feb 13, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

That's what I think too. There is no way I can keep someone alive indefinitely if they are trained by an SF ele and two warriors. But that ranger's pet that otherwise is just 'there' for a thumper or a beastmaster just became a hell of alot more dangerous with Warmonger's, Brutal or Guided Weapon on it. Wailing weapon is exactly the right buff to let your warrior shake a train, ranger or disrupt a sin combo on your monk. It is also perfect to stop those slow-ass scythe swings. Dulled Weapon can reduce the opponent's damage output by tons in melee and might have a delayed removal. It also keeps sins from getting energy or rangers/warriors from interrupting with certain skills and preparations.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 13, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Isn't the OP just a list of skills from skill lists? You can't discuss a class in terms of what they could do if you could use every skill from their list, you have to look at a specific 8-skill build and debate its merits compared to other options.

I did actually play a build with a Ritualist flagrunner in GvG the other day though. The bar was something like...

-Warmonger's Weapon
-Glyph of Renewal
-Gale
-Mend Body and Soul
-Weapon of Warding
-Recovery
-Essence Strike
-Storm Djinn's Haste

He was a decent skirmish character with a speed boost, Gale, and some heals. Weapon of Warding especially is a strong skirmish and flagstand skill. At the flagstand Recovery was nice for keeping the warrior's clean, but the real fun was Glyph of Renewal + Warmonger's Weapon to maintain WW on two paragons almost indefinitely. Each paragon could then get on one enemy monk (no dodging thanks to Crippling Anthem) and start madly interrupting stuff. Once we got that combo going in 8v8 most teams just broke to autoattacks. Kind of gimmicky, but fun as hell when we got it to work right.

Anyway, I think Rits have a lot of potential with the buffs. Weapon of Warding and the earshot range from a spirit was especially crucial. I'm interested to see what sorts of builds will be made utilizing their new skills.

Symbol · Feb 13, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Rits have pretty insane spike assists too. Ancestor's rage and lamentation anyone?

Rits are a strong and versatile class since the update. A.net really got this one right.

Scrimbul · Feb 13, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Isn't the OP just a list of skills from skill lists? You can't discuss a class in terms of what they could do if you could use every skill from their list, you have to look at a specific 8-skill build and debate its merits compared to other options.

I was listing skills separate from spirits primarily to just let people glance over them so that they could see what was available away from items/spirits. A few of the skills are useable even without items due to low energy cost and fast cast times.

I was running in RA just to be a moron:

Weapon of Remedy
Wielder's Boon
Weapon of Warding
Wielder's Strike
Nightmare Weapon
Warmonger's Weapon
Heket's Rampage
Flesh of My Flesh

14 Restoration
13 Communing
6 Beast Mastery

and the armor with weapon spells insignia + armor buffs on weapons giving a grand total of 75-80 AL... on a spellcaster. Takes less damage and heals better than a dervish while dealing decent damage... without needing to take a monk sub.

It was surprisingly strong when I moved it to TA too. It couldn't totally replace a prot monk of course, but damned close in a pinch, and then when things were stable again start putting the hurt on monks or spellcasters. It put up decent pressure with the lifesteal + hekets, with the strike thrown in between... for circa 250 dmg on a 60 AL target. That's alot for patchwork healing + condition removal.

I think that many people won't be able to use rits beyond spirits because they are used to the idea of building around one or two skills on a bar with at best two utility slots. Three or four utility slots is unheard of especially for smaller arenas where the Ritualist keeps proving to excel. For higher level PvP it can make better use of some ranger spirits than most Rangers, with many of the channelling/restoration abilities.

To be honest I tried playing a spirit spammer build right after that. We won, but it took forever and seemed like such a headache compared to using brutal and an IAS, or buffing the assassin/warrior/dervish... the self survival was horrible to boot.

Rits also do not see their full potential in TA because many groups won't give time to ask the rit what he can do for them. They expect spirit spam, DPS and healing... and then don't bother to protect the rit from thumpers. Weapon rits dont have this problem and do many of the same things spirit guys can.

urania · Feb 13, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

people who play rits...especially those spamming spirits...should be shot on spot. <3

Patccmoi · Feb 13, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Rts are imo one of the most versatile class in 1 build atm (meaning you can do a damn lot in 1 skill bar), similar to what rangers can do (though with different uses). A lot of people still somehow kept the impression that they suck or are extremely gimmicky (spirit spammer, rt spiker teams) but it's because they never actually took the time to do Rt bars that aren't.

I've been using Rts for a long time in all kind of PvPs doing various team setups with them and they're just great at nearly any role. You can have them doing strong direct damage pressure with channeling, strong support healing with restoration (and in a team build packing enough spirits can act as a primary healer very efficiently), strong offensive support with a mix of Communing and Channeling and a very good mix of offense + defense with a mix of Channeling + Restoration. And the utility they can bring is actually huge now that they buffed most of the underpowered stuff. They can do good party healing, good condition control, they have totally insane caster control with Warmonger Weapon (imo totally broken skill, but for some reason people ignore it in great part since NF was released. It was broken at 15E and they buffed it and it's still not seeing major play which totally baffles me. I can just wait for it to become popular), the most powerful caster buff in the game with Weapon of Quickening, very good unstrippable defense against various stuff, very powerful spike assist (some slightly too powerful like Lamentation)...

If people started actually using Rt as part of a balanced build instead of only as gimmick they'd realize all the potential they have. You slowly see more and more, but there's still a very big misconception of the class potential and value in general. People still look at the class as it was balanced when Factions was released and hate it while about no skill is similar since then, all their utility has been buffed tons and most of the stupid annoying stuff was nerfed.

Scrimbul · Feb 13, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Rts are imo one of the most versatile class in 1 build atm (meaning you can do a damn lot in 1 skill bar), similar to what rangers can do (though with different uses). A lot of people still somehow kept the impression that they suck or are extremely gimmicky (spirit spammer, rt spiker teams) but it's because they never actually took the time to do Rt bars that aren't.

I've been using Rts for a long time in all kind of PvPs doing various team setups with them and they're just great at nearly any role. You can have them doing strong direct damage pressure with channeling, strong support healing with restoration (and in a team build packing enough spirits can act as a primary healer very efficiently), strong offensive support with a mix of Communing and Channeling and a very good mix of offense + defense with a mix of Channeling + Restoration. And the utility they can bring is actually huge now that they buffed most of the underpowered stuff. They can do good party healing, good condition control, they have totally insane caster control with Warmonger Weapon (imo totally broken skill, but for some reason people ignore it in great part since NF was released. It was broken at 15E and they buffed it and it's still not seeing major play which totally baffles me. I can just wait for it to become popular), the most powerful caster buff in the game with Weapon of Quickening, very good unstrippable defense against various stuff, very powerful spike assist (some slightly too powerful like Lamentation)...

If people started actually using Rt as part of a balanced build instead of only as gimmick they'd realize all the potential they have. You slowly see more and more, but there's still a very big misconception of the class potential and value in general. People still look at the class as it was balanced when Factions was released and hate it while about no skill is similar since then, all their utility has been buffed tons and most of the stupid annoying stuff was nerfed.

Exactly. And even if you think rits suck or otherwise don't know anything about them, all you have to do is unlock the skills, just the non-elites. Use it as a sub or as a primary with an elite from a different profession (Mesmer and Monk elites work well if you're going to use it for support)

Set the rule you're not allowed to use spirits, and then decide if you want to approach from the angle of items or weapon spells. Account for the max energy cap when using item spells, and then see what you come up with. The regen tacked on to half the restoration spells adds on to the huge heals and leaves your bar open to other possibilities. At the very least take warding + wielder's boon and then use the rest of your bar for other things. You'll be very pleased with the results even with Rit as a sub profession at 8 restoration.

Guillaume De Sonoma · Feb 14, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

<Ensign> No one knows what rits do
<Ensign> not even anet

That was said in irc a long time ago, but I think it still has some relavence.